Lawopnik: Any lawyers who can help with class problem?

"OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars" (jakeauern) 02/21/2016 at 19:29 • Filed to: None

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I’m studying for a Business Law test and ran across a question that my text and teacher are neither clear enough for me to answer.

“1. Debt collection lawsuit for $60,000 against a MS resident, who has no ties to TN?” Who has jurisdiction?

My first thought is US Circuit Court because of Diversity of Citizenship, but I don’t know if debt falls under the Long Arm like motor vehicle accidents do. Also it is under 75k which is the US Circuit court minimum amount. This question has me all ¯\_()_/¯.

My citroen won't start > OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars 02/21/2016 at 19:34

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I am lawyer but I can’t really help you on that.

Berang > OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars 02/21/2016 at 19:39

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Not a lawyer, but I think it will depend on the laws of the state the debtor resides in.

Nibby > OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars 02/21/2016 at 19:44

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Not a lawyer but that money should go to me.

StoneCold > OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars 02/21/2016 at 19:47

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I hate to distract you from studying, but there is a literal “Long Arm” of the law!?!

OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars > StoneCold 02/21/2016 at 19:52

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Yup. Long-Arm Statues basically allow you to go after people in other states that effect you. The best example is you can sue someone in your state court instead of the US District Court if say they hit you on the interstate in your state and live in another or if they have any kind of reach within the state while living in another. It’s kind of complicated how it works thus the question but I’m starting to lean toward my question being a US District Court.

suba-wagen > OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars 02/21/2016 at 19:56

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I wish I could help. However I think that long arm statutes would apply here. I would guess that it would be up to the court to decide, but because the debt is based in Tennessee wouldn’t that satisfy the minimum contact rule?

Edit: Also taking a business law class. However I do not have the half the book that covers debts and things due to my school attempting to save students money.

Matt Nichelson > OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars 02/21/2016 at 19:58

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I live in Mississippi, so I find that one quite funny and unsurprising.

That being said, after doing a little research, per fdcpa, it sounds like jurisdiction would go where the person resides. Don’t quote me on this though.

OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars > suba-wagen 02/21/2016 at 19:59

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That’s a good point. The mystery grows deeper. Wish that the teacher would provide answer key. Think she wrote these down in class and I skipped over this one.

OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars > Matt Nichelson 02/21/2016 at 20:02

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Can either you guys or Arkansas go ahead and take Memphis off our hands already? We don’t want them.

Matt Nichelson > OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars 02/21/2016 at 20:05

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Hahaha that’s hilarious! God no, Arkansas can have them. I have been to Memphis several times and really can’t stand the place. Same goes for New Orleans, though, and I only live a couple of hours north of there.

OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars > Matt Nichelson 02/21/2016 at 20:06

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See I love New Orleans, and by New Orleans I mean right downtown and the cruise terminal where we get on the ships...

blacktruck18 > OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars 02/21/2016 at 20:07

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I an also taking business law, but for some reason at Southern Illinois University it is called Finance 270.

How does long arm work in TN/MS? I think “no ties to TN” might be the deciding factor to answer the question.

OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars > blacktruck18 02/21/2016 at 20:10

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Same here. I might just be overthinking everything and the no ties is her way of telling me that it’s the 6th U.S. District court I have to go through because of Diversity of Citizenship. Also, who decided that BLaw and Finance are the same thing over there... You go to a Business School of lies.

FoilyDoily > OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars 02/21/2016 at 20:10

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It doesn’t meet the threshold for federal court. It won’t be a federal court case. Likely an MS case based on defendant’s residence.

Matt Nichelson > OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars 02/21/2016 at 20:12

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Hey, to each their own. I won’t knock you for it. I just never cared much for it. The smell can be terrible during the summer months, crime is awful, and I always feel like I will get mugged. What’s weird, though, is that on the north shore of the lake is a nice little place called Slidell. My wife and I love to go there.

OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars > Matt Nichelson 02/21/2016 at 20:13

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Yeah it really is just Memphis with a cruise port when you remind of me of that stuff haha. So that is why I like NOLA then, cruises.

Matt Nichelson > OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars 02/21/2016 at 20:17

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Fair enough. If you are that big into cruises, have you ever looked at Mobile? I want to say they have some that dock there as well.

OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars > Matt Nichelson 02/21/2016 at 20:22

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Yeah but have never had the pleasure of leaving out of there. We mainly use Carnival and their cruises for the Eastern Caribbean leave out of Miami, and the Western Caribbean leave out of NOLA. Best port of call I can remember is either Seattle for the Alaska cruise or whichever island Norwegian used to leave from in Hawaii.

blacktruck18 > OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars 02/21/2016 at 20:27

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You go to a Business School of lies.

You have no idea, I am studying supply change management, and for some reason my courses are almost the same as business management, I am like WTF, it’s not the same shit.

Anyway, I am 90% agreeing with you about the 6th district court. Like I said though, I think TN might have a weird long arm deal, I know it can varies by state. I think that might by why she picked those states. Or, like you I am over thinking it.

I found TN’s long arm statute

and

MS's they should be able to answer you question

Matt Nichelson > OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars 02/21/2016 at 20:30

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Ah ok. I didn’t know which cruise docked where. I bet the one in Hawaii was very nice indeed.

Sorry, guess we got a bit sidetracked there haha.

OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars > blacktruck18 02/21/2016 at 20:30

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The fact your program is called SCM and not logistics is a good start. I go to Tennessee(obviously) and our program for SCM is #3 in the country. I’m an accounting student and still am getting a collateral in SCM it’s so good here.

OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars > Matt Nichelson 02/21/2016 at 20:31

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It happens. I need a break anyways.

blacktruck18 > OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars 02/21/2016 at 20:34

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Accounting, god bless ya. I hate accounting. It’s probably the overthinking deal, but I sit in accounting just thinking to myself, “this seems so complicated for something that should be simple.”

It f’s with my head.

Matt Nichelson > OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars 02/21/2016 at 20:35

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Nothing wrong with that. Good luck on your test though!

OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars > blacktruck18 02/21/2016 at 20:37

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Accounting is just rules. Which makes it easy and hard at the same time. That’s one of the reasons I want to do advisory, not auditing. Advisory is one problem after another.

Sweet Trav > OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars 02/21/2016 at 20:39

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In the real world it would be whatever the binding arbitration clause says in the fine print of the loan. The way that I read that question, it implies that because the MS resident has “no-ties” to TN, the Collections Agency is in TN. Since the amount is under 75k it would not be heard in federal court. It would most likely be heard in TN Circuit court. (all of this is if I remember Con Law class right)

blacktruck18 > OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars 02/21/2016 at 20:44

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It’s funny you mention auditing, my ACCT 220 grad teacher last semester and my 230 professor this semester both worked at the same auditing firm in St. Louis. They both quit and went back to school to become professors.

They both hated auditing.

OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars > blacktruck18 02/21/2016 at 20:46

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I always thought I wanted to audit and then I learned the magic that is Advisory.

jvirgs drives a Subaru > OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars 02/21/2016 at 21:12

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Auditing is one problem after another too ;) and its making my life hell right now.

ihatepickingnames > OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars 02/22/2016 at 08:40

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Well, ‘no ties’ and long-arm statutes v. federal court because of diversity are two different issues. If there are really “no ties” to TN then the case wouldn’t be in TN...even in federal court in TN. Tell me more about this “no ties,” though. Why is TN even in the running for jurisdiction? The debt in question, how did it come about?

If there really are ‘no ties’ in that TN is a completely random choice with no connection to the defendant or the debt then we’d be in MS. Either state or federal court in MS would work.

haveacarortwoorthree2 > OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars 02/22/2016 at 09:28

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Didn’t wade through everything else so apologies if already addressed. Federal court does not have jurisdiction — amount too small and there are not enough facts to tell you whether there is diversity of citizenship anyway. (BTW, the lower level of fed ct is district court, then 13 courts of appeals/circuit courts, then the Supreme Court). Thus, you default to state court. Because the debtor has no ties to TN, the creditor can’t sue there (by no ties, I interpret that to mean that the parties did not agree to a TN forum in the contract that created the debt). The creditor must sue in MS.

OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars > ihatepickingnames 02/22/2016 at 09:36

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The creditor(me) is in Tennessee according to the problem. My bad I didn’t make that clear. Some people know where I live and I never thought to clear that up.

ihatepickingnames > OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars 02/22/2016 at 09:43

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So, assuming that the question as you have it written in the OP is the entire question...I’d have to go with MS. I mean, really I would want to know more about how the debt came about because I suspect there could be business ties to TN that bring the defendant into TN jurisdiction (ie if you’re in TN and he’s in MS when he borrows money from you then we might be able to say he’s done business in TN and there’s your long-arm jurisdiction). But if the entire question is ““1. Debt collection lawsuit for $60,000 against a MS resident, who has no ties to TN?” Who has jurisdiction?” we’re in MS state court.

OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars > ihatepickingnames 02/22/2016 at 09:50

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Yeah the creditor is in Knoxville, some people realized it, but I needed to put that on there. I was in the library for 7 hours straight with no break when I typed this. My bad.

ihatepickingnames > OpposResidentLexusGuy - USE20, XF20, XU30 and Press Cars 02/22/2016 at 10:00

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Haha no worries. I remember/still know very much that feeling. I skimmed the comments but it sounds like I didn’t look closely enough and I missed this being answered. Sorry about that. But since I’m already repeating I might as well keep going. If he borrowed money from a knoxville creditor (and not like, borrowed money from a creditor who is now in knoxville but wasn’t at the time) then he does have ties to TN and those are enough to get long-arm jurisdiction. So, the proper jurisdiction would be TN state court (not enough in dispute for diversity jurisdiction). Suit could also be brought in MS but I assume the creditor would want to keep the suit local. And, even if it were brought in MS they’d be applying TN law so it makes sense to bring it in TN.

Anyway, good luck! I hated Corporations when I took it (that’s what we called it). Ended up being one of my most useful classes, though.

haveacarortwoorthree2 > ihatepickingnames 02/22/2016 at 11:13

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Yeah, I read “no ties to TN” to mean that the loan did not involve the creditor while he was in TN — otherwise, getting a loan from a TN lender means you have a tie to TN (plus phone calls, emails, correspondence re the loan), in which case general jurisdiction likely would not exist but specific jurisdiction would. Also, in the absence of a choice of law provision, I wouldn’t be so sure that a MS court would apply TN law where the creditor is a TN resident and the debtor is a MS resident; indeed, I’d bet on the MS court applying MS law.

ihatepickingnames > haveacarortwoorthree2 02/22/2016 at 11:20

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I would have thought that if this were a case where the creditor was in TN at the time of the loan then MS would apply TN law but I’ll admit I’m weaker on choice of law.

haveacarortwoorthree2 > ihatepickingnames 02/22/2016 at 12:00

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You can flip any argument the creditor wants to make about why TN law applies to why MS should apply in favor of the debtor (e.g., the creditor was in TN/the debtor was in MS, the debtor knew he was dealing with a creditor in TN/the creditor knew he was dealing with a debtor in MS, etc.). And that’s why contracts usually contain a choice of law provision and a forum selection/consent provision. Or if they don’t, why there’s a race to the courthouse once a dispute arises.